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	<title>Comments on: Embrace the Bear Market with Overbalancing</title>
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	<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/2008/07/embracing-bear-market.html</link>
	<description>like a friend telling you about money ...</description>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/2008/07/embracing-bear-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-784</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=278#comment-784</guid>
		<description>Hi TFB,

While I understand the reasoning for this sort of thing, and it resonates to some degree, it seems to beg at least two question: (1) how to decrease stocks, and  (2) down relative to what?

You addressed question 1, but the answer seems to indicate a less than completely thought out process to get back in. Perhaps that is simply due to the limitations of a short post.

As to question two: Could be down relative to the recent peak, although false rallies and such make that problematic; true peaks are only known in hindsight (same of course on the other side for bottoms). Super peaks also pose a challenge. Given a huge bubble like the late great tech induced bubble in the US markets, 10% down from the peak, or even 20% down from the peak does not necessarily denote a good buying opportunity.

Seems to me down relative to the expected long term mean return would be better, if only there really were a long term expected (in a probabilistic sense) mean, and only if we knew what that value was.

Another related approach would be to do something similar based on valuations; hold more when P/E was low and less when P/E is high. Similar caveats would of course apply as I mentioned above.

Unfortunately for all of this, if it were really this easy, wouldn&#039;t all the pros already be doing this and beating the pants off all the amateur buy and hold investors? Only they don&#039;t.

Rod</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi TFB,</p>
<p>While I understand the reasoning for this sort of thing, and it resonates to some degree, it seems to beg at least two question: (1) how to decrease stocks, and  (2) down relative to what?</p>
<p>You addressed question 1, but the answer seems to indicate a less than completely thought out process to get back in. Perhaps that is simply due to the limitations of a short post.</p>
<p>As to question two: Could be down relative to the recent peak, although false rallies and such make that problematic; true peaks are only known in hindsight (same of course on the other side for bottoms). Super peaks also pose a challenge. Given a huge bubble like the late great tech induced bubble in the US markets, 10% down from the peak, or even 20% down from the peak does not necessarily denote a good buying opportunity.</p>
<p>Seems to me down relative to the expected long term mean return would be better, if only there really were a long term expected (in a probabilistic sense) mean, and only if we knew what that value was.</p>
<p>Another related approach would be to do something similar based on valuations; hold more when P/E was low and less when P/E is high. Similar caveats would of course apply as I mentioned above.</p>
<p>Unfortunately for all of this, if it were really this easy, wouldn&#039;t all the pros already be doing this and beating the pants off all the amateur buy and hold investors? Only they don&#039;t.</p>
<p>Rod</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/2008/07/embracing-bear-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-720</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=278#comment-720</guid>
		<description>Ted - The exit strategy -- yes, never go into something without an exit strategy. My current plan is to unwind the overbalancing on the way up similar to how I increase the allocation to stocks on the way down, but with a delay, say 10%. For example I went to 65/35 at 20% off peak but I&#039;m not going to feverishly add and remove 5% to stocks when the market bounces above and below the 20% off line. I would only go back to 60/40 when the market goes up to 10% off. This way I leave myself some cushion for buy-low-sell-high. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve been thinking about this for a while and I come to the conclusion that I picked 60/40 quite arbitrarily. Should it be 65/35? 70/30? I think I can comfortably live with any of those. 85/15? Not now, but if stocks go 50%+ off peak, I&#039;ll be OK with that too. At no time do I have more in stocks than what Vanguard recommends for my age. So I think a variation from an arbitrarily picked number will be OK especially I&#039;m buying more when the market is down.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is going to be done on a globally diversified portfolio. So I don&#039;t think it will be like your growth fund in 2000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted &#8211; The exit strategy &#8212; yes, never go into something without an exit strategy. My current plan is to unwind the overbalancing on the way up similar to how I increase the allocation to stocks on the way down, but with a delay, say 10%. For example I went to 65/35 at 20% off peak but I&#039;m not going to feverishly add and remove 5% to stocks when the market bounces above and below the 20% off line. I would only go back to 60/40 when the market goes up to 10% off. This way I leave myself some cushion for buy-low-sell-high. </p>
<p>I&#039;ve been thinking about this for a while and I come to the conclusion that I picked 60/40 quite arbitrarily. Should it be 65/35? 70/30? I think I can comfortably live with any of those. 85/15? Not now, but if stocks go 50%+ off peak, I&#039;ll be OK with that too. At no time do I have more in stocks than what Vanguard recommends for my age. So I think a variation from an arbitrarily picked number will be OK especially I&#039;m buying more when the market is down.</p>
<p>This is going to be done on a globally diversified portfolio. So I don&#039;t think it will be like your growth fund in 2000.</p>
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		<title>By: Eiji</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/2008/07/embracing-bear-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-719</link>
		<dc:creator>Eiji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=278#comment-719</guid>
		<description>Great post.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I am reminded again of the mantra, &quot;Buy low, sell high.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Most people seem to &quot;Sell low, buy high,&quot; based on emotional reaction to market price swings.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Prices are low now so I&#039;m buying.  Bear market == Buying Opportunity.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The only caveat is that if I&#039;m already in retirement and have no choice but to withdraw from my retirement fund, then a market downturn is not pleasant.  I can vary the amount I withdraw or vary which asset classes I withdraw from, but I probably still have to to withdraw some amount after a sustained bear market, unless I decide to go back into the workforce to get additional income.  That would suck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.</p>
<p>I am reminded again of the mantra, &#034;Buy low, sell high.&#034;</p>
<p>Most people seem to &#034;Sell low, buy high,&#034; based on emotional reaction to market price swings.</p>
<p>Prices are low now so I&#039;m buying.  Bear market == Buying Opportunity.</p>
<p>The only caveat is that if I&#039;m already in retirement and have no choice but to withdraw from my retirement fund, then a market downturn is not pleasant.  I can vary the amount I withdraw or vary which asset classes I withdraw from, but I probably still have to to withdraw some amount after a sustained bear market, unless I decide to go back into the workforce to get additional income.  That would suck.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/2008/07/embracing-bear-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-713</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=278#comment-713</guid>
		<description>The thing I don&#039;t understand is when do you go back to 60/40?  When the S&amp;P gets back above the &quot;bear&quot; level?  When it gets back to the &quot;peak&quot; level?  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Do you have a time limit for your overbalancing dispensation?  What if the bear market takes 5 years going up and down to eventually wind down to -60% from the peak before it starts to go back up and then takes another 5 years to get back above water? Do you really want to &quot;overbalance&quot; for 10 years?      &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Given the possibility of a protracted down turn, doesn&#039;t overbalancing defeat the purpose of implementing an asset allocation plan in the first place?  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Have there been any studies to show this is potentially better than just sticking with your 60/40?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I can&#039;t help but think of the growth fund I owned in 2000 that still has never recovered.  Perish the though of ever overbalancing that nightmare.  Good money after bad money down the drain for 8 years!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing I don&#039;t understand is when do you go back to 60/40?  When the S&#038;P gets back above the &#034;bear&#034; level?  When it gets back to the &#034;peak&#034; level?  </p>
<p>Do you have a time limit for your overbalancing dispensation?  What if the bear market takes 5 years going up and down to eventually wind down to -60% from the peak before it starts to go back up and then takes another 5 years to get back above water? Do you really want to &#034;overbalance&#034; for 10 years?      </p>
<p>Given the possibility of a protracted down turn, doesn&#039;t overbalancing defeat the purpose of implementing an asset allocation plan in the first place?  </p>
<p>Have there been any studies to show this is potentially better than just sticking with your 60/40?</p>
<p>I can&#039;t help but think of the growth fund I owned in 2000 that still has never recovered.  Perish the though of ever overbalancing that nightmare.  Good money after bad money down the drain for 8 years!</p>
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		<title>By: G</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/2008/07/embracing-bear-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-711</link>
		<dc:creator>G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=278#comment-711</guid>
		<description>Great post. Even though I know in my head that bear markets are good for net savers like me, it still hurts to watch the value of my portfolio fall - perhaps I should stop looking at it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. Even though I know in my head that bear markets are good for net savers like me, it still hurts to watch the value of my portfolio fall &#8211; perhaps I should stop looking at it!</p>
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