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	<title>Comments on: Dividend Tax Going Up, Moving to Munis</title>
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	<description>like a friend telling you about money ...</description>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4043</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 18:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4043</guid>
		<description>Thanks, TFB. I appreciate your experience and advice. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, TFB. I appreciate your experience and advice. <img src='http://thefinancebuff.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4038</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 04:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>J - Vanguard’s Tax-Managed Balanced Fund (VTMFX) is about 50% large US stocks with low dividend yield, 50% muni bonds. If you use that fund in your taxable account, it&#039;s basically the same as I wrote in this post: munis in taxable, value stocks in tax deferred (assuming you will put a value stock fund in your IRAs to keep the value/growth balance). I like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J &#8211; Vanguard’s Tax-Managed Balanced Fund (VTMFX) is about 50% large US stocks with low dividend yield, 50% muni bonds. If you use that fund in your taxable account, it&#8217;s basically the same as I wrote in this post: munis in taxable, value stocks in tax deferred (assuming you will put a value stock fund in your IRAs to keep the value/growth balance). I like it.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4037</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 03:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4037</guid>
		<description>I have a newbie question. I am 34 years old. Right now I&#039;m maxing out my Roth IRA, my spouse&#039;s Roth IRA, my SEP-IRA and (when I have one) my 401(k) to the best of my ability. However, I am considering taxable investing for those years I cannot contribute to these accounts.

I&#039;m looking at purchasing one fund in my taxable account and never selling until I retire. For this purpose, I was wondering if Vanguard&#039;s Tax-Managed Balanced Fund (VTMFX) could work as a one-stop-shop for a taxable account. I do not see myself tax-loss harvesting or redeeming shares within five years. The simplicity of this balanced fund appeals to me, and I think I could rebalance within my current  retirement accounts to achieve my bond/domestic/foreign allocation.

The only downside I see is possibly losing some domestic returns. VTMFX is not a pure index fund, and it has a slight growth tilt. However, I&#039;m wondering if its tax management might be worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a newbie question. I am 34 years old. Right now I&#8217;m maxing out my Roth IRA, my spouse&#8217;s Roth IRA, my SEP-IRA and (when I have one) my 401(k) to the best of my ability. However, I am considering taxable investing for those years I cannot contribute to these accounts.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m looking at purchasing one fund in my taxable account and never selling until I retire. For this purpose, I was wondering if Vanguard&#8217;s Tax-Managed Balanced Fund (VTMFX) could work as a one-stop-shop for a taxable account. I do not see myself tax-loss harvesting or redeeming shares within five years. The simplicity of this balanced fund appeals to me, and I think I could rebalance within my current  retirement accounts to achieve my bond/domestic/foreign allocation.</p>
<p>The only downside I see is possibly losing some domestic returns. VTMFX is not a pure index fund, and it has a slight growth tilt. However, I&#8217;m wondering if its tax management might be worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4024</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 13:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4024</guid>
		<description>Mike - You are missing the tax deduction when the money was originally contributed to a tax deferred account. When you take into account the original tax deduction, it &lt;a href=&quot;http://thefinancebuff.com/2007/06/commutative-law-of-multiplication.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;has been shown&lt;/a&gt; that a tax deferred account is exactly the same as a Roth account when the marginal tax rate remains the same. A Roth account strictly dominates a taxable account because there is no tax on dividends or capital gains. So the choices really come down to (a) pay tax on dividends and capital gains and pay no tax on the bond interest; or (b) take a hit on the bond yield and pay no tax on capital gains or dividends, as I outlined in the beginning of the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike &#8211; You are missing the tax deduction when the money was originally contributed to a tax deferred account. When you take into account the original tax deduction, it <a href="http://thefinancebuff.com/2007/06/commutative-law-of-multiplication.html" rel="nofollow">has been shown</a> that a tax deferred account is exactly the same as a Roth account when the marginal tax rate remains the same. A Roth account strictly dominates a taxable account because there is no tax on dividends or capital gains. So the choices really come down to (a) pay tax on dividends and capital gains and pay no tax on the bond interest; or (b) take a hit on the bond yield and pay no tax on capital gains or dividends, as I outlined in the beginning of the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4015</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 06:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I might be missing something, but even if dividends were taxed as ordinary income, I don&#039;t see how it makes sense to hold value stocks in tax deferred and munis in taxable.  Value stocks do have a relatively high yield, but dividends are only part of the total return.  By holding value stocks in tax deferred, the capital gains will be taxed as ordinary income rather than long-term capital gains, which really hurts after-tax return.

Do you have any data showing that holding value stocks in tax-deferred generates better after-tax return, even under the proposed higher tax rates?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I might be missing something, but even if dividends were taxed as ordinary income, I don&#8217;t see how it makes sense to hold value stocks in tax deferred and munis in taxable.  Value stocks do have a relatively high yield, but dividends are only part of the total return.  By holding value stocks in tax deferred, the capital gains will be taxed as ordinary income rather than long-term capital gains, which really hurts after-tax return.</p>
<p>Do you have any data showing that holding value stocks in tax-deferred generates better after-tax return, even under the proposed higher tax rates?</p>
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		<title>By: enonymous</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4013</link>
		<dc:creator>enonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 05:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4013</guid>
		<description>TFB - thanks for the clarification on the TIPS - I have done the same (back in late 2008).

I hold nominal UST b/c I value their modern portfolio benefit. Muni funds likely, but not always, will yield more on a tax equivalent basis than UST, though at current levels, depending on your state and duration, that may not be the case. Regardless, 2008-9 thankfully does not happen often. The point is simply that it can, and it did. My fixed income functions like portfolio insurance. I won&#039;t chase the yield, but I will chase the quality. When I need the quality, I want it to be there. If I lose a few basis points yearly, or even in the long run, perhaps it will balance out with the flight to quality bonus, perhaps it won&#039;t, but at all times, my fixed income will be not be subject to any credit risk. I&#039;ll take my term risk and inflation risks at the level that I choose them. I don&#039;t want the other risks. That&#039;s hat my Equities, REITs, and CCFs are for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TFB &#8211; thanks for the clarification on the TIPS &#8211; I have done the same (back in late 2008).</p>
<p>I hold nominal UST b/c I value their modern portfolio benefit. Muni funds likely, but not always, will yield more on a tax equivalent basis than UST, though at current levels, depending on your state and duration, that may not be the case. Regardless, 2008-9 thankfully does not happen often. The point is simply that it can, and it did. My fixed income functions like portfolio insurance. I won&#8217;t chase the yield, but I will chase the quality. When I need the quality, I want it to be there. If I lose a few basis points yearly, or even in the long run, perhaps it will balance out with the flight to quality bonus, perhaps it won&#8217;t, but at all times, my fixed income will be not be subject to any credit risk. I&#8217;ll take my term risk and inflation risks at the level that I choose them. I don&#8217;t want the other risks. That&#8217;s hat my Equities, REITs, and CCFs are for.</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4006</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 21:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4006</guid>
		<description>enonymous - (1) TIPS: I sold the short-term ones and I&#039;m keeping the long-term TIPS in tax deferred. (2) Nominal Treasury: While you do get a &quot;flight-to-quality&quot; bonus when there is turmoil, in quieter times you earn less. Over the long term, the flight-to-quality bonus and the lower yield balance out. It&#039;s great nominal Treasury worked out well in 2008-2009, but a financial crisis like that doesn&#039;t happen often. If you have good income, your ongoing savings are a source for rebalancing as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>enonymous &#8211; (1) TIPS: I sold the short-term ones and I&#8217;m keeping the long-term TIPS in tax deferred. (2) Nominal Treasury: While you do get a &#8220;flight-to-quality&#8221; bonus when there is turmoil, in quieter times you earn less. Over the long term, the flight-to-quality bonus and the lower yield balance out. It&#8217;s great nominal Treasury worked out well in 2008-2009, but a financial crisis like that doesn&#8217;t happen often. If you have good income, your ongoing savings are a source for rebalancing as well.</p>
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		<title>By: enonymous</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4005</link>
		<dc:creator>enonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 17:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-4005</guid>
		<description>1.) What are you planning to do about TIPS/ TIPS funds? These are highly tax inefficient, so I assume you will either drop them as an asset class (I doubt this) or you wll leave them in tax deferred space. It seems it would be pennywise poud foolish to move TIPS out into the taxable space.

2.) I only hold US Treasury instruments in my bond/fixed income portfolio (cash/cd&#039;s money markets are not part of my portfolio, just part of my emergency/daily needs funds). I do so because of their presumed safety. I switched to all US Nominals and US TIPS in 2006. It treated me very well during the recent financial meltdown, and allowed me to rebalance when needed and benefit strongly from keeping a proper asset allocation due to the negative correlation that was expected, and ocurred (I hold intwermediate term US Treasuries through the Spartan INt Term US Treasury fund). MUNI funds, depending on their duration, did not fare as well. Fixed income should be for volatility reduction, safety, and as a source from which rebalancing funds can be taken. I like your premise but it would force me to abandon my core belief as stated in this paragraph.
What are your thoughts on this matter?
Full disclosure  - I purchased 1% of my net worh in CA GO bonds when they were yielding 5.75% in 2009. I don&#039;t count that in my fixed incme allocation - it was the only &#039;play money&#039; I&#039;ve ever &#039;gambled&#039; with since I went strictly passive low cost index/broad asset class ETF in 2005-6.

I&#039;m 75% equities/25% bonds. About 35% of my equity portfolio is in small and/or value (incl international via VSS).

Appreciate your thoughts on this mater

(I am a MFJ wage slave with &gt;250K income).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.) What are you planning to do about TIPS/ TIPS funds? These are highly tax inefficient, so I assume you will either drop them as an asset class (I doubt this) or you wll leave them in tax deferred space. It seems it would be pennywise poud foolish to move TIPS out into the taxable space.</p>
<p>2.) I only hold US Treasury instruments in my bond/fixed income portfolio (cash/cd&#8217;s money markets are not part of my portfolio, just part of my emergency/daily needs funds). I do so because of their presumed safety. I switched to all US Nominals and US TIPS in 2006. It treated me very well during the recent financial meltdown, and allowed me to rebalance when needed and benefit strongly from keeping a proper asset allocation due to the negative correlation that was expected, and ocurred (I hold intwermediate term US Treasuries through the Spartan INt Term US Treasury fund). MUNI funds, depending on their duration, did not fare as well. Fixed income should be for volatility reduction, safety, and as a source from which rebalancing funds can be taken. I like your premise but it would force me to abandon my core belief as stated in this paragraph.<br />
What are your thoughts on this matter?<br />
Full disclosure  &#8211; I purchased 1% of my net worh in CA GO bonds when they were yielding 5.75% in 2009. I don&#8217;t count that in my fixed incme allocation &#8211; it was the only &#8216;play money&#8217; I&#8217;ve ever &#8216;gambled&#8217; with since I went strictly passive low cost index/broad asset class ETF in 2005-6.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m 75% equities/25% bonds. About 35% of my equity portfolio is in small and/or value (incl international via VSS).</p>
<p>Appreciate your thoughts on this mater</p>
<p>(I am a MFJ wage slave with &gt;250K income).</p>
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		<title>By: Random Poster</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-3993</link>
		<dc:creator>Random Poster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 18:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>TFB, thanks for the reply.

If you did not hold any value stock funds in your taxable account, but rather only, say, a total stock market index fund, would you still make the investment changes? 

I ask because, at some point, most people only have so much space in their tax deferred accounts, and legally avoiding all taxation on their investments while maintaining their desired asset allocation is--as far as I can tell--pretty close to an impossible task.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TFB, thanks for the reply.</p>
<p>If you did not hold any value stock funds in your taxable account, but rather only, say, a total stock market index fund, would you still make the investment changes? </p>
<p>I ask because, at some point, most people only have so much space in their tax deferred accounts, and legally avoiding all taxation on their investments while maintaining their desired asset allocation is&#8211;as far as I can tell&#8211;pretty close to an impossible task.</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-3992</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 17:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/moving-value-stock-funds-into-tax-deferred-accounts.html#comment-3992</guid>
		<description>Random Poster - My comments to your thoughts:

(1) Without the actual law or even a bill that spells it out, it&#039;s impossible to know exactly how it&#039;s going to work.

(2) The 3.8% surtax would be on top of the regular tax, regardless how the regular tax is figured out. Previous post is &lt;a href=&quot;http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/03/3-8-medicare-tax-on-unearned-income-in-health-care-reform-bill.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

(3) The preferential treatment on dividends only existed in the last ten years. I would say it&#039;s more of an exception than a rule. One can reasonably argue that such preferential treatment benefits the rich more than the middle class and the poor and therefore must be reversed. Especially if it&#039;s taken away from only the upper income taxpayers, it only affects a small % of investors. The majority will go for it in a heartbeat.

(4) I agree. When you have value stock funds in a taxable account with sizable unrealized capital gains, you will find yourself in a bind -- either pay a high tax rate on dividends or sell and pay the capital gains tax. That&#039;s why I&#039;m making the changes now before capital gains build up.

Finally, AMT might absorb some of the additional tax, depending on how exactly it&#039;s implemented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Random Poster &#8211; My comments to your thoughts:</p>
<p>(1) Without the actual law or even a bill that spells it out, it&#8217;s impossible to know exactly how it&#8217;s going to work.</p>
<p>(2) The 3.8% surtax would be on top of the regular tax, regardless how the regular tax is figured out. Previous post is <a href="http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/03/3-8-medicare-tax-on-unearned-income-in-health-care-reform-bill.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>(3) The preferential treatment on dividends only existed in the last ten years. I would say it&#8217;s more of an exception than a rule. One can reasonably argue that such preferential treatment benefits the rich more than the middle class and the poor and therefore must be reversed. Especially if it&#8217;s taken away from only the upper income taxpayers, it only affects a small % of investors. The majority will go for it in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>(4) I agree. When you have value stock funds in a taxable account with sizable unrealized capital gains, you will find yourself in a bind &#8212; either pay a high tax rate on dividends or sell and pay the capital gains tax. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m making the changes now before capital gains build up.</p>
<p>Finally, AMT might absorb some of the additional tax, depending on how exactly it&#8217;s implemented.</p>
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