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	<title>Comments on: Out of the Market and Meaningless Stats</title>
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		<title>By: jmg</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-7052</link>
		<dc:creator>jmg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2011 23:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-7052</guid>
		<description>I like a few others agree with your conclusion that the 10 day stat is a little like cherry picking, but I believe your argument is based on a misunderstanding.  Nobody is claiming that you can only miss 10 days and they have to be the best days for the stats to be correct.  I&#039;m sure we can all agree that someone who is habitually timing the market will more then likely be out for a whole lot more then 10 days.  Every day that they are out of the market increases the odds that they will miss a substantial jump.  

Further,  it is a wide known fact that most investors fail to follow the basic idea of buy low and sell high.  It seems that most panic and sell when the market is low, and then buy when the market is high.  Why would they do this?  The most logical conclusion I have heard is that they have fallen victim to timing the market.  They feel comfortable buying when the stock is doing well, but not comfortable with their position when the stock price is struggling.  This creates a natural phenomenon in which investors trying to beat the market end up losing.. bad. 

To conclude, I would agree that the stats can be misleading, but I would not call them meaningless.  I would compare them to analogies used to demonstrate points.  Using them should fall under the same category as saying you can buy EVERY graduating high school student in the country a brand new Porsche for the next 4 years 14 times over to demonstrate how large our debt is.  No one would do that, but yet it is still valid.  

As someone who has worked with the public I know first hand that the majority of people respond better to stories that they can visualize.  In this manner these stats give people a tool to better inform people of SMART investing strategy in a way that they can easily understand and embrace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like a few others agree with your conclusion that the 10 day stat is a little like cherry picking, but I believe your argument is based on a misunderstanding.  Nobody is claiming that you can only miss 10 days and they have to be the best days for the stats to be correct.  I&#8217;m sure we can all agree that someone who is habitually timing the market will more then likely be out for a whole lot more then 10 days.  Every day that they are out of the market increases the odds that they will miss a substantial jump.  </p>
<p>Further,  it is a wide known fact that most investors fail to follow the basic idea of buy low and sell high.  It seems that most panic and sell when the market is low, and then buy when the market is high.  Why would they do this?  The most logical conclusion I have heard is that they have fallen victim to timing the market.  They feel comfortable buying when the stock is doing well, but not comfortable with their position when the stock price is struggling.  This creates a natural phenomenon in which investors trying to beat the market end up losing.. bad. </p>
<p>To conclude, I would agree that the stats can be misleading, but I would not call them meaningless.  I would compare them to analogies used to demonstrate points.  Using them should fall under the same category as saying you can buy EVERY graduating high school student in the country a brand new Porsche for the next 4 years 14 times over to demonstrate how large our debt is.  No one would do that, but yet it is still valid.  </p>
<p>As someone who has worked with the public I know first hand that the majority of people respond better to stories that they can visualize.  In this manner these stats give people a tool to better inform people of SMART investing strategy in a way that they can easily understand and embrace.</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-5543</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 23:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-5543</guid>
		<description>@Nate - I wrote this some time ago and I had to re-read it to see if I was disrespectful to any reader.  I don&#039;t see it. Nickel and I are friends now. I hope you read my followup post linked in the previous comment, which takes a closer look at the best up days near the market bottoms. My argument is that there is enough margin of error in the math. Even if you take into account people&#039;s propensity to panic when the market is down and that best days are near market bottoms, and you up the odds by a factor of a billion, the odds are still lower than winning the powerball lottery. It doesn&#039;t change the conclusion that these best 10 days stats are meaningless, which I think you agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nate &#8211; I wrote this some time ago and I had to re-read it to see if I was disrespectful to any reader.  I don&#8217;t see it. Nickel and I are friends now. I hope you read my followup post linked in the previous comment, which takes a closer look at the best up days near the market bottoms. My argument is that there is enough margin of error in the math. Even if you take into account people&#8217;s propensity to panic when the market is down and that best days are near market bottoms, and you up the odds by a factor of a billion, the odds are still lower than winning the powerball lottery. It doesn&#8217;t change the conclusion that these best 10 days stats are meaningless, which I think you agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-5542</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 22:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-5542</guid>
		<description>TFB, 
I agree with you that one shouldn&#039;t let rollovers and administrative transfers worry investors simply because they don&#039;t want to miss the best market days. 

However, while I may agree with your conclusion, I don&#039;t necessarily agree with your method of arriving there. Like you, I think that the &quot;10 best days&quot; argument is a farce. I agree, that it would take the single most unlucky investor in the world to only miss those 10 days and it&#039;s statistically unlikely to happen. But on the other hand, there is plenty of evidence to support Nickel&#039;s claim that the best days most often occur during &quot;bad&quot; periods. Thus missing those days are not purely &quot;random chance&quot;. An investor IS statistically more likely to miss an up day as compared to other randomly chosen days. There is ample evidence to show that the average investor tends to bail out of the market at the tail end of a recession (where a major &quot;up&quot; day is statistically more likely to occur). 

I&#039;ll also point out that the Financial Planning Association tackled your argument in one of their past publications. In short, they agreed (like I do) that it was unfair to only look at the 10 best days. In turn, they looked at both the best and the worst days. They discovered that almost all &quot;best&quot; days occurred within 90 days of a &quot;worst&quot; day and that 50% of the time they were no more than 12 days apart. The take away lesson was that a market timer is likely to miss both best and worst, if they miss any at all. 

The FPA&#039;s final conclusions: 1) missing the best days was devastating to a portfolio, but unlikely to happen. 2) missing the worst days was amazingly beneficial but equally unlikely. 3) missing both the best and the worst days resulted in performance almost identical to a buy and hold strategy EXCEPT the buy and hold required considerable less time, effort, research, and anxiety. Plus the timing strategy would entail transaction costs and (potentially) taxes that would result in a lower NET portfolio value.

And I&#039;d like to add that just because Nickel can&#039;t (or hasn&#039;t) offered a better solution doesn&#039;t lend any additional credibility to your solution. Suppose, for example, that you made the claim that aspirin could cure all cancers. I don&#039;t have to provide an alternative cure of my own to prove that your claim is false. There&#039;s plenty of evidence that aspirin doesn&#039;t cure cancer. If Nickel&#039;s only contribution is to make people think more critically about your proposal, then I say it is still a worthwhile post and shouldn&#039;t be dismissed simply because it doesn&#039;t offer an alternative solution. I interpreted your response to be &quot;if you can&#039;t provide a better method, keep your mouth shut&quot;. If I misinterpreted, I apologize in advance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TFB,<br />
I agree with you that one shouldn&#8217;t let rollovers and administrative transfers worry investors simply because they don&#8217;t want to miss the best market days. </p>
<p>However, while I may agree with your conclusion, I don&#8217;t necessarily agree with your method of arriving there. Like you, I think that the &#8220;10 best days&#8221; argument is a farce. I agree, that it would take the single most unlucky investor in the world to only miss those 10 days and it&#8217;s statistically unlikely to happen. But on the other hand, there is plenty of evidence to support Nickel&#8217;s claim that the best days most often occur during &#8220;bad&#8221; periods. Thus missing those days are not purely &#8220;random chance&#8221;. An investor IS statistically more likely to miss an up day as compared to other randomly chosen days. There is ample evidence to show that the average investor tends to bail out of the market at the tail end of a recession (where a major &#8220;up&#8221; day is statistically more likely to occur). </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll also point out that the Financial Planning Association tackled your argument in one of their past publications. In short, they agreed (like I do) that it was unfair to only look at the 10 best days. In turn, they looked at both the best and the worst days. They discovered that almost all &#8220;best&#8221; days occurred within 90 days of a &#8220;worst&#8221; day and that 50% of the time they were no more than 12 days apart. The take away lesson was that a market timer is likely to miss both best and worst, if they miss any at all. </p>
<p>The FPA&#8217;s final conclusions: 1) missing the best days was devastating to a portfolio, but unlikely to happen. 2) missing the worst days was amazingly beneficial but equally unlikely. 3) missing both the best and the worst days resulted in performance almost identical to a buy and hold strategy EXCEPT the buy and hold required considerable less time, effort, research, and anxiety. Plus the timing strategy would entail transaction costs and (potentially) taxes that would result in a lower NET portfolio value.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;d like to add that just because Nickel can&#8217;t (or hasn&#8217;t) offered a better solution doesn&#8217;t lend any additional credibility to your solution. Suppose, for example, that you made the claim that aspirin could cure all cancers. I don&#8217;t have to provide an alternative cure of my own to prove that your claim is false. There&#8217;s plenty of evidence that aspirin doesn&#8217;t cure cancer. If Nickel&#8217;s only contribution is to make people think more critically about your proposal, then I say it is still a worthwhile post and shouldn&#8217;t be dismissed simply because it doesn&#8217;t offer an alternative solution. I interpreted your response to be &#8220;if you can&#8217;t provide a better method, keep your mouth shut&#8221;. If I misinterpreted, I apologize in advance.</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-220</guid>
		<description>Nickel,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thank you for your comments. If you think my calculation was a huge oversimplification, what do &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; think the realistic odds are for missing the 10 best days in 10 years and 25 years and how do you prove it? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Please read my follow-up post: &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://thefinancebuff.com/2007/08/more-on-missing-10-best-days.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; More On Missing the 10 Best Days&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nickel,</p>
<p>Thank you for your comments. If you think my calculation was a huge oversimplification, what do <i>you</i> think the realistic odds are for missing the 10 best days in 10 years and 25 years and how do you prove it? </p>
<p>Please read my follow-up post: <a HREF="http://thefinancebuff.com/2007/08/more-on-missing-10-best-days.html" REL="nofollow"> More On Missing the 10 Best Days</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: fivecentnickel.com</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-217</link>
		<dc:creator>fivecentnickel.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-217</guid>
		<description>An additional point in response to anonymous... The deck is actually strongly stacked against missing the low days and being in on the high days. As I&#039;ve already pointed out, the highest days typically come in the wake of (relatively) unforeseen negative events. The fraction of investors that sold out just before Black Monday is very small compared to the fraction that bailed amidst huge losses. Many were then out of the market for the biggest bounce. You can&#039;t look at this in terms of pure random probability. You have to consider the correlation between down markets and up days, as well as the human tendency to bail during the former, missing out on the latter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An additional point in response to anonymous&#8230; The deck is actually strongly stacked against missing the low days and being in on the high days. As I&#8217;ve already pointed out, the highest days typically come in the wake of (relatively) unforeseen negative events. The fraction of investors that sold out just before Black Monday is very small compared to the fraction that bailed amidst huge losses. Many were then out of the market for the biggest bounce. You can&#8217;t look at this in terms of pure random probability. You have to consider the correlation between down markets and up days, as well as the human tendency to bail during the former, missing out on the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: fivecentnickel.com</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-216</link>
		<dc:creator>fivecentnickel.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-216</guid>
		<description>While you&#039;re correct that this overstates the problem in that people won&#039;t miss just the 10 best days of the market, you&#039;re forgetting that the biggest days often come in the earliest stages of a recovery.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For example, looking over the past 25 years, three of the 10 biggest days came in the week and a half following Black Monday, and two more of them occur in close succession at the very tail end of the dot bomb debacle. Thus, these days are concentrated into periods when people are especially likely to have bailed on the market and not gotten back in.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Consider the scenario in which sometimes gets smacked on Black Monday, jumps out of the market to lick their wounds, and then immediately misses gains of 9.3%, 5.3% and 4.9%. They&#039;ve now locked in a huge loss that they had little chance of avoiding in the first place, and they also missed out on a huge recovery.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Calculating the probability that people will randomly miss the ten best days is a *huge* oversimplification, and it casts doubt on your entire argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While you&#8217;re correct that this overstates the problem in that people won&#8217;t miss just the 10 best days of the market, you&#8217;re forgetting that the biggest days often come in the earliest stages of a recovery.</p>
<p>For example, looking over the past 25 years, three of the 10 biggest days came in the week and a half following Black Monday, and two more of them occur in close succession at the very tail end of the dot bomb debacle. Thus, these days are concentrated into periods when people are especially likely to have bailed on the market and not gotten back in.</p>
<p>Consider the scenario in which sometimes gets smacked on Black Monday, jumps out of the market to lick their wounds, and then immediately misses gains of 9.3%, 5.3% and 4.9%. They&#8217;ve now locked in a huge loss that they had little chance of avoiding in the first place, and they also missed out on a huge recovery.</p>
<p>Calculating the probability that people will randomly miss the ten best days is a *huge* oversimplification, and it casts doubt on your entire argument.</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-200</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-200</guid>
		<description>Ted asked:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;Say they missed last Thursday. Will they ever get the opportunity to make that back? Maybe the more important question is when will that occur?&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Now we know the answer is yes and time for the wait is two weeks. Right now the Dow is trading at 13,472.84 down 312.23. That is below the 13,577.87 close on July 11, before the 284 points jump on July 12.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;All these just show that the market is volatile. Some days are up. Don&#039;t get too excited. Some days are down. Don&#039;t get too pessimistic. Ignore the noise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted asked:</p>
<p><i>Say they missed last Thursday. Will they ever get the opportunity to make that back? Maybe the more important question is when will that occur?</i></p>
<p>Now we know the answer is yes and time for the wait is two weeks. Right now the Dow is trading at 13,472.84 down 312.23. That is below the 13,577.87 close on July 11, before the 284 points jump on July 12.</p>
<p>All these just show that the market is volatile. Some days are up. Don&#8217;t get too excited. Some days are down. Don&#8217;t get too pessimistic. Ignore the noise.</p>
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		<title>By: AGivant</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-195</link>
		<dc:creator>AGivant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-195</guid>
		<description>I never seen any statistics what happens if you missed 10/40 worst days on market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never seen any statistics what happens if you missed 10/40 worst days on market.</p>
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		<title>By: TFB</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>TFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-194</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure the return would be phenomenal if someone is able to avoid the 10 worst days in 10 years. But the chance for that is also one in 2.8 billion billion billion. Don&#039;t even think about it. Nobody can do it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Because the stock market goes up over time, being out of the market usually means missing some average &quot;up&quot; days. I don&#039;t think trying to predict the &quot;down&quot; days and jumping out is a useful strategy. If you have to be out because of an account transfer, I wouldn&#039;t worry about it. But I also wouldn&#039;t get out of the market intentionally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure the return would be phenomenal if someone is able to avoid the 10 worst days in 10 years. But the chance for that is also one in 2.8 billion billion billion. Don&#8217;t even think about it. Nobody can do it.</p>
<p>Because the stock market goes up over time, being out of the market usually means missing some average &#8220;up&#8221; days. I don&#8217;t think trying to predict the &#8220;down&#8221; days and jumping out is a useful strategy. If you have to be out because of an account transfer, I wouldn&#8217;t worry about it. But I also wouldn&#8217;t get out of the market intentionally.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://thefinancebuff.com/out-of-market-and-meaningless-stats.html#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.thefinancebuff.com/?p=137#comment-193</guid>
		<description>Another slightly related query is &quot;what is the return if someone avoided the 10 (40) worst days?&quot;  While the odds of that happening are similarly impossible, the tried and true scaremongering stats of the brokerage houses avoid answering the question about how market timing can reduce risks in some circumstances.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I tend to look at it on somewhat of a 1:1 basis.  If I miss the best day of performance but avoid the worst day of performance, will that make me happy?  Stated differently, would I give up the biggest &quot;up&quot; day in return for avoiding the biggest &quot;down&quot; day?  Absofreakinglutely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another slightly related query is &#8220;what is the return if someone avoided the 10 (40) worst days?&#8221;  While the odds of that happening are similarly impossible, the tried and true scaremongering stats of the brokerage houses avoid answering the question about how market timing can reduce risks in some circumstances.  </p>
<p>I tend to look at it on somewhat of a 1:1 basis.  If I miss the best day of performance but avoid the worst day of performance, will that make me happy?  Stated differently, would I give up the biggest &#8220;up&#8221; day in return for avoiding the biggest &#8220;down&#8221; day?  Absofreakinglutely.</p>
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