I mentioned in the previous post How to Buy I Bonds: Soup to Nuts that we were creating a second trust with software to buy another $10,000 worth of I Bonds each year. A reader asked me to share more details on how we were doing it. For more on buying I Bonds in a trust account in general, please read Buy More I Bonds at TreasuryDirect in a Revocable Living Trust.
Please note I’m not a lawyer. I’m only sharing what we did for our own situation. I’m not recommending that you do the same. Please take this as only an anecdote.
Background and Purpose
Many married couples have two revocable living trusts — one for each spouse. We have only one joint trust. Both setups are perfectly valid. An attorney prepared the trust for us a few years ago. It has the two of us as both grantors and trustees.
This trust uses my Social Security Number as its tax ID. It already bought $10,000 in I Bonds this year. It also holds other assets elsewhere.
Because a trust can only buy $10,000 in I Bonds each year, we wanted a second trust that uses my wife’s Social Security Number as the tax ID. As a separate trust with a different tax ID, this second trust can buy another $10,000 worth of I Bonds each year. We will only hold I Bonds in this second trust. Our existing trust will still be our main trust.
Quicken Willmaker & Trust
Nolo (formerly Nolo Press) has been publishing DIY legal books since the 1970s. It publishes a book-and-software kit called Quicken Willmaker & Trust. Amazon sells the 2022 edition for $97 but you can get a used copy of the previous editions for much less.
The 500-page book explains what the documents do and how you should go about them. The included software on a CD uses an interview format that leads you to complete the documents based on your preferences. This approach is similar to how tax software works.
The software in Quicken Willmaker & Trust can create a will, a revocable living trust, a healthcare directive, a durable power of attorney, and some other documents related to estate planning. If we didn’t have an attorney prepare all those for us a few years ago, we would’ve used this software to create them ourselves.
I wanted to get this book-and-software kit from the public library but they didn’t have it. Instead, I found another book at the library that ended up working better for our specific situation.
Make Your Own Living Trust by Denis Clifford
This other book, Make Your Own Living Trust, now in its 15th edition, is also published by Nolo. The author Denis Clifford is an estate planning attorney. Amazon sells the book for $33.
As the title suggests, this book only covers living trust, which is fine for our purpose because that was the only thing we needed. Instead of interview-format software, it includes a link at the end to download fill-in-the-blank document templates. The book explains the different choices for the blanks in the templates.
The document templates in Rich Text Format are fully editable by Microsoft Word or compatible applications. This worked better for us because it’s more customizable whereas the software in Quicken Will & Trust only works through interviews.
Simple Structure
Because we wanted to keep this second trust really simple, we went with this structure:
- A joint trust with the two of us as both grantors and trustees. Either trustee can act alone on behalf of the trust. We can amend or revoke the trust at any time. This is the same as in our existing trust. It’s also the default in the shared trust document template.
- The name of the trust mirrors our existing trust, only reversing the order of our names.
- When one of us dies, the deceased person’s share of the trust assets goes to the survivor. The survivor can amend or revoke the trust at any time.
- When both of us die, the trust assets dump into our existing (main) trust.
The document template has places for trust beneficiaries. We listed each other as the beneficiary when one of us dies and the main trust as the beneficiary when both of us die.
Notary Certificate
The document template says to attach a notary certificate after our signatures. Each state mandates specific language for what the notary certificate should say. I just Googled “[state] notary acknowledgment.” There’s a dedicated website for the notary acknowledgment language in each state but I prefer to get the language from an official state government site.
For example, here’s the link to the language in the Nevada state law, and here’s the one for California. The software in Quicken Will & Trust will probably automatically print the notary acknowledgment based on the state but we had to do this manually with the document template in Make Your Own Living Trust.
Our second trust became official after we signed the trust document and had it notarized. Because I got the book from the public library, our only cost was the notary fee. We can open an account for it at TreasuryDirect now. See Buy More I Bonds at TreasuryDirect in a Revocable Living Trust.
***
If we didn’t already have estate planning documents prepared by an attorney, Quicken Willmaker & Trust is probably easier to use because the software uses an interview format. It’s also a better value because it covers more than just the living trust.
The document templates in Make Your Own Living Trust are like the “forms mode” in tax software. You can edit the document directly but you also have to be comfortable doing it. Having to find the correct notary acknowledgment language also adds another step.
Nolo isn’t the only source for living trust software or templates. I chose Nolo only because of its history and reputation. I’m not familiar with other books or websites, and I have no basis to judge their quality.
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Jonathan says
I’m not a lawyer, but ….
From my personal interactions with TreasuryDirect, my understanding is that purchase limits are affiliated with tax identification numbers, not distinct legal entities. Thus a revocable trust that reuses your SSN isn’t a valid workaround. Are you confident that the Treasury Department considers your purchases acceptable?
One can of course acquire a distinct EIN for your revocable trust, which I think would enable you to make your additional I Bond purchases without problems. Though, of course, with down the road implications for how you file your taxes…
Harry Sit says
Personal accounts and trust accounts are two different account types. They’re treated separately even though they have the same tax ID. Our existing trust using my SSN already has an account and bought $10,000 in I Bonds this year in addition to my personal account. It works.
Michael Jones says
I confirmed what Harry notes above directly with Treasury Direct as their website is also not very specific about it. They wrote back and assured me that individual accounts and trusts, even if owned by the same individuals, are in fact different accounts and each separately subject to the $10k limit.
Steve says
Harry, thank you for the article.
Jonathan, you raise an interesting point about whether a revocable trust held by an individual is considered a different purchaser for the purpose of meeting Treasury limits for savings bonds.
A related issue: If an individual and his revocable trust are considered distinct entities for I-bond purchase limits, how about if the individual has more than one revocable trust? Does an individual who has 3 revocable trusts (perhaps with different beneficiaries or terms) count as four entities for the purpose of meeting I-bond purchase limits?
There is a lengthy thread on bogleheads dot org entitled “I bonds in a living trust” from June 29, 2011 which discusses this matter. After reading the thread I was unable to determine what the right answer is to the question about multiple trusts.
I don’t own I-bonds, so I don’t have any dogs in this hunt.
Harry Sit says
I would say ‘yes’ but I’m not going to push it at this moment. One personal account plus one trust account per person plus any business account plus the tax refund is plenty for me.
Charlie says
I probably need to learn about trusts before attempting this, but is there any reason not to do this as a single/unmarried person? I’m unmarried, so I imagine it might be a minor hassle if I was to get married and wanted to create a new joint trust and transfer the I Bonds to it, but is there any barriers to doing this?
Harry Sit says
I don’t see any reason. Many married couples have a separate trust for each person. You can just keep your trust and only amend the beneficiaries as you wish.
YDG says
Curious if Harry or anyone else has an opinion about https://www.freewill.com/ and their California Revocable Living Trust. Seems free, comprehensive and convenient to my utterly untrained eye.
Harry Sit says
I’m not familiar with that site or any other books or websites. I have no basis to judge their quality. I chose Nolo only because of its history and reputation.
Coriander says
Thanks for this super helpful advice. It frankly never occurred to me that I could set up a trust so easily. I used the instructions and downloadable forms in the Dennis Clifford book, which I also got from the library. Since my credit union provides notary services for members, my cost was zero. Today I set up my Treasury Direct account for the trust, using my SSN and the same email, address and bank as for my personal account. I’ve put in my purchase order for I Bonds, and just got the confirmation that the purchase will be completed tomorrow. Remarkably easy.
M S says
Thanks Harry for writing these detailed articles, and answering questions in the comments section. I have already purchased $10k I-bonds for me and spouse. We have a living trust created a while back with my SSN as primary. I am going to purchase $10k using the existing trust. Based on your article, I am planning to create a second trust, so I can purchase another $10k I-bonds using the second trust.
1. When creating the living trust, I wanted to know if there is a way to indicate my spouse’s SSN as primary?
2. So far, we have only transferred our house into the trust, but there are no bank accounts in the trust. I hope we can continue to use our joint checking account for funding to Treasury Direct?
Harry Sit says
The trust prepared for me by the lawyer came with a Certification of Trust, which is a summary of the trust. One of the line items says “The trust’s tax identification number is _______.” Here’s a template from Nolo, which doesn’t have this line but you can add if you’d like:
https://www.nolo.com/technical-support-main/nolo-living-trust-making-a-certification-or-abstract-of-trust.html
You can link a personal bank account to a revocable trust account at TreasuryDirect. As the grantor and the trustee, you have authority to put personal money into the trust and take money out of the trust into your personal account.
John Reilley says
My wife and I created a revocable living trust for the purpose of avoiding probate and to provide a smooth transfer of assets to our kids at our passing. We put all our assets into the trust by applying the Trust title. We used my tax ID # but I do not believe it matters. We could have used my wife’s as we file jointly and both tax ID numbers are on our return. We purchase a $10k I bond last Dec., another one in the trust name in May and a third in my wife’s name and tax number just last week. After reading the entries here I am confident that I can purchase another in my name alone. Thanks all.
D.D. says
I am a single adult with no kids, who wants to use your technique to
buy ibonds in a new revocable living trust. I got the Clifford book
from the library and am puzzling over how to do this task.
How can I fill out trust Schedule A (it appears at the end of Form 1;
it lists the property to go into the new trust) if there is no
TreasuryDirect account in existence yet? I am assuming that one has
to:
1) Create the trust and get it notarized (and this trust
initially holds no property), and then with trust in hand
2) create the TreasuryDirect account and buy ibonds, and finally
3) amend the trust to include the new ibonds (adding them to the
formerly blank list of property)
Do I have this procedure all wrong? Won’t TreasuryDirect ask for the
date of the trust, and I don’t think I know it until I get the trust
notarized, right? Won’t they ask for a copy of the trust, or at least an abstract of trust? Sorry for the confusion – this is all new to me. I don’t bank locally and would like to minimize notary expenses. Thanks.
Cory says
I had exactly the same situation. I put the following language on Schedule A: “U.S. Treasury I Bonds acquired in the trust’s name.” Note that this doesn’t specify whether the bonds are acquired before or after the date of the trust, so no need to amend after buying the bonds. And no, I didn’t need to send a copy of the trust or an abstract to Treasury. I followed the instructions in the original post to set up the Treasury Direct account in the name of the trust, and the whole process worked like a charm.
Henry says
You could write $100 dollars there. You could then put $100 in an envelope with the name of the trust on it, thus transferring $100 there. After you buy the I-Bonds, just take the $100 out of the envelope and put it in your wallet. As the trust is a revocable grantor trust with you as the trustee, you can do all of that. If you like, you can have a notebook to record all of this.
I am not an attorney, so this is not a legal advice, just what I concluded by studying the matter.
Rob says
Wow! Talk about inflation! Amazon now sells the Quicken Willmaker & Trust book for $99.00 instead of $39.00 ($24.00 for used).
Thanks for all your awesome info. Just bought my first $10k of I bonds, now I’m wanting more and you’ve been an invaluable guide for the journey…
LeoG says
Can I buy a 2020 version? I assume not that much has changed for simple trusts. Thanks
Harry Sit says
I suppose so. Or check at the public library near you.
Harold says
Great information in the entire series on I bonds and Trusts, Thank you. I purchased the NOLA book with the link provided above but had a question on a response from a reader’s comment. Since I’m opening the trust with the singular objective of purchasing, I bonds. When completing the trusts schedule A or Property list and listing “U.S. Treasury I Bonds acquired in the trust’s name.” Would you include a dollar amount on the list/schedule? I would like to use the trust to continue to purchase the maximum $10k annually. Thx
Harry Sit says
I wouldn’t include a dollar amount. I put in my property list “TreasuryDirect account ___________.” Then I filled in the account number by hand after I opened the account.
Dougie says
One of the primary reasons people have a living trust is to avoid probate, which is a brutal process in some states (dare I say, Kalifornia). Buying $10k of I bonds direct in your name and then another $10k in your living trust using your same SS for both accounts is great. But when you pass on to the afterlife, your spouse will need to go through probate to get ownership of assets not jointly owned or in a Payable on Death type account. Thus your personally owned I bonds have to go through probate for your spouse (and then again for a second time later for his/her heirs) to get legal ownership. Is it possible after a certain amount of time (perhaps 5 years) for someone, still alive of course, to ask the Treasury put all of their personal I bonds into their living trust that already has I bonds?
Harry Sit says
You can name a second owner or a beneficiary for the I Bonds in your personal account. That avoids probate.
Jill says
Thank you for this article!
My public library had a copy of Quicken Willmaker & Trust book & software (CD-Rom) Kit. I tried but wasn’t able to download the software off the CD-Rom, since – as a library resource – I couldn’t register it as a purchase, which looks to be a requirement to gain access to the essential software.
My library didn’t have Make Your Own Living Trust in book or e-book form, but it is currently $20 as an e-book from Amazon ($29 paperback). Interestingly, I was already able to download all the current form templates at nolo.com even before purchasing the e-book: https://store.nolo.com/products/make-your-own-living-trust-litr.html. If your library has this (D Clifford) book, you’d be good to go.
Jacquie Traub says
Hi Harry,
I came across this item while diving deep into Trust creation.
“Given the fact that the trust res must be existing property on the date of the declaration of trust….”
Since we need to create the declaration of trust before we can open an account and purchase an I-Bond in the name of the trust, that property (I-Bond) is not actually in existence (owned by us) on the date of the declaration of trust, right? What are the chances that this could come to haunt us in the end, or am I being to literal?
https://lawshelf.com/coursewarecontentview/elements-and-limits-on-creation-and-duration-of-interests.
Harry Sit says
I’m not too concerned but Henry in reply to comment #7 suggested putting $100 in an envelope as the seed for the trust.
Donald Graves says
Jacquie & Harry,
Why not just add any new I-bonds to the trust assets schedule for “The Jacquie Traub Living Trust,” when she acquires them? I could imagine a possible problem if the trust is specific to only certain assets – like my “Kia Optima living trust” is. So, I’m glad you raised this issue. Maybe I can amend this Optima trust to include newly purchased I-bonds.
Jacquie Traub says
Donald,
My husband and I reached the purchase limits in our long established trusts so we established additional trusts specifically for the purchase of I-bonds (as this article describes.)
But a trust is not actually valid if it doesn’t contain some property. But the property has to be in existance on the date of the declaration of trust. If you establish the trust and it contains no other property, and then buy the bonds in the name of that trust at a later date, then that last statement is not true. (I’m not sure who , if anyone, is checking these dates against each other.)
So we did what Henery in comment #7 suggested. We listed a sum of money on Schedule A which made the trust valid. Then we purchased the i-bonds in the name of the (valid) trust, and added the newly purchased bonds to Schedule A: “All I-bonds in the Jacquie Traub Living Trust Account at Treasury Direct.”
Note that the trust doesn’t need to be amended to add and remove items from Schedule A. Schedule A is not even technically part of the declaration of trust. Notice that it comes after the notarization. It’s more for record keeping, to keep track of items transferred into the trust.
Roland says
After preparing the revocable living trust yourself, how do you execute it and make it legal document? Do you need to file with any government agency?
Thank you.
Harry Sit says
You sign the trust document in front of a notary public. The notary public signs and stamps the Notary Certificate. You don’t need to file it with any government agency.
Kate Chang says
Hello, Harry,
Have you used Quicken Willmaker & Trust for the Revocable Living Trust?
I just find out the “assignment of Property” page right after the “schedule A” also has the property to place in the trust. Do I need to put the TreasuryDirect account number in the “assignment of Property” page and sign and date also? Looking forward to your reply. Thank you.
Kate
Harry Sit says
Sorry I haven’t used it. Please look in the instructions for the difference between Schedule A and Assignment of Property.
Kate says
Hello, Harry,
Is TreasuryDirect account or bank account titled property or non-titled property?
Thank you. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Kate
Harry Sit says
Titled.
Marilyn says
I will be buying I-bonds in the next couple days one for my husband, one for myself, one for my trust and as gifts for two boys. Can all of the payments come out of the same bank account. In other words, do I have to have a bank account in the name of my trust? Can we pay for the individual I-bond’s out of a joint checking account?
Harry Sit says
All the accounts can link to the same joint checking account.
Joe Smith says
Say I have a revocable living trust for myself. When I buy I-bonds for my trust, can I designate a beneficiary for the I-bond just as I can when I buy an I-bond via my personal TD account? Or can I only name a beneficiary for the trust itself, and then, if I pass away, whatever is in the trust (such as I-bond) would go to my beneficiary?
Harry Sit says
I Bonds in a trust account at TreasuryDirect can’t have a designated beneficiary. When you die, a successor trustee takes over and distributes the trust’s assets by the terms of the trust.
Ed says
Thanks Harry!
I got a copy of the nolo book from the library and created a trust for myself. I just got it notarized today and opened up an account for it at TreasuryDirect. They seem to be less picky about the name you give the account now…at least for a trust for one person.