My friend Austin asked me about the Roth TSP. TSP is Thrift Savings Plan. It’s the equivalent to a 401k plan for federal government employees and members of the military.
Until now, TSP only accepts pre-tax contributions, like a Traditional 401k. TSP announced that it will add the Roth feature soon. I heard April 1, 2012 as the likely start date.
If you are in the TSP now, should you switch some or all of your contributions to the Roth TSP?
Federal civilian employees receive a full match if they contribute 5% of their pay. As a result, many just contribute 5% to get the full match. If they still contribute 5% but switch some or all of the contributions from pre-tax to Roth, because the Roth contributions and the earnings won’t be taxed after 59-1/2, these participants will have a higher retirement income after tax.
Switching to Roth sounds good then. But wait, a higher retirement income can also be achieved by simply increasing the contribution rate, from 5% to say 7%. So should you do 7% to traditional or 5% to Roth?
Private sector employees faced this question for some time now. Many employers added a Roth 401k feature to their 401k plan. The employees had the choice of switching to Roth 401k or bumping up their contributions to the Traditional 401k, because the impact on the take-home pay would be the same.
Like traditional 401k versus Roth 401k for the private sector employees, whether the Traditional TSP is better than the Roth TSP depends on the tax bracket now and the tax bracket in the future, which is unknown. In my previous post The Case Against Roth 401(k), I argued that most people should stay with Traditional 401k, except those who have a pension and already contribute the maximum.
However, for TSP participants, I say that most should switch to the Roth TSP.
Why the difference between private sector 401k and TSP? One word: pension.
Federal civilian employees do get a pension. The FERS program pays 1.1% of highest average pay during any consecutive 3 years for each year of service if you retire after 62 with 20 or more years of service (1% of high-3 average per year of service if under 62 or fewer than 20 years of service). For a 30-year service, that’s 33% of the pre-retirement income, covered. Social Security will cover another 1/3 of the pre-retirement income. Both FERS pension and Social Security are adjusted for inflation.
At retirement, withdrawals from the TSP will be taxed at the marginal rate, on top of pension and Social Security. For those who already contribute the maximum $17,000 a year to TSP, switching to the Roth TSP will effectively put more money into the TSP. You should lean toward doing the Roth TSP unless:
- You will not work long enough to qualify for a pension; or
- You have substantial income from other sources now (spouse, outside employment), which puts you in a high tax bracket; or
- You will retire early, but postpone drawing from your pension (use TSP withdrawals for gap years); or
- You live in a state with high state income tax but you will retire to a state with no or low state income tax; or
- an increase in Adjusted Gross Income will make you lose some other tax benefits (child tax credit, American Opportunity Credit, etc.)
Members of the military get a pension only if they stay in the military for 20 years. For those who will stay long enough to get the pension, the case for the Roth TSP would be the same as the one for civilian employees.
Military members who don’t stay 20 years won’t get a pension. I would still do the Roth TSP because the income in the military isn’t that high. After leaving the military, you will likely get a job in the private sector that pays much more. It makes sense to do the Roth TSP now when your tax rate is low.
With some exceptions, most TSP participants should switch to the Roth TSP.
Say No To Management Fees
If you are paying an advisor a percentage of your assets, you are paying 5-10x too much. Learn how to find an independent advisor, pay for advice, and only the advice.
Good analysis for individuals who have pensions. Roth 401Ks are good decisions for someone starting out with a lower salary (pension or not). Switching to a traditional 401K can be done when one makes more money and wants to have an impact on lowering taxes.
Are TSP matching contributions to a Roth TSP also treated as Roth? If so then it seems like a no-brainer to choose the Roth unless other factors weigh heavily against it.
Example: Salary = $100,000, matching amount = $5000, current tax rate = 30% (for argument’s sake), retirement tax rate = 30%
If regular TSP, you will get $5000 now and ultimately have to pay taxes of 30% on $5000 = $1500, for a net gain of $3500 after tax.
If Roth TSP, you will get $5000 now and never have to pay taxes on it, for a net gain of $5000 after tax.
This would seem to be a pretty big bonus to pass up, unless I am misinterpreting the rules.
Harry Sit says
No, the match stays traditional regardless.
Simple analysis: earn D dollars, current tax rate is c. Can contribute D to traditional tsp, but only D*(1-c) to roth TSP. Assume a growth factor of g on TSP funds while waiting to retire. Traditional TSP ends up with g*D and rothTSP ends up with g*D*(1-c). When funds are withdrawn assume tax rate is r. Total funds after withdrawal from traditional TSP is g*D*(1-r), total funds withdrawn from RothTSP is g*D*(1-c). Comparing these amounts shows that traditional TSP generates more funds as long as the later tax rate r is less than the current tax rate c. Generally, this will be the case as income in retirement is less than income when employed. Unless, of course, congress increases tax rates.
Thanks. In that case we will likely stick with the traditional, at least for now.
Interesting, I’ve been wondering about this since I read your prior article. I used to be a federal employee but am now a state employee. My pension is better but I have no matching in my 457b.
You said “For those who already contribute the maximum $17,000 a year to TSP, switching to the Roth TSP will effectively put more money into the TSP”
So since I’m not contributing the max at the moment because of financial reasons…does it mean it is less beneficial to switch to the Roth 457b?
“You have substantial income from other sources now (spouse, outside employment), which puts you in a high tax bracket”
What is considered substantial?
Also, I thought the rule was that if you think you’re going to be in a higher tax bracket when you retire, you should contribute to Roth.
With the federal employee, lets say he makes $100,000 which means his pension will be approximately $33,000. Even with the TSP…wouldn’t he be in a lower tax bracket. So should he still go for the Roth?
Andrew: you can answer these questions better than any of us since only you know your overall tax situation and marginal tax brackets. Check out this article from TFB that will help you decide how to invest the “marginal dollar”: http://thefinancebuff.com/roth-401k-for-people-who-contribute-max.html
I’m sticking with the traditiona TSP for a few reasons. One, the deduction keeps me in the 15% tax bracket. I doubt I’ll be in a higher tax bracket when I retire (and things will change greatly by then–I’m only 32.) Secondly, at my age, I don’t have faith that the pension will be around when I retire. Thirdly, I’m not sure I’ll stick around as a Fed until I retire. Fourth, I have an outside Roth that I (and wife) max out each year.
I contribute 6% of my pay and am nowhere near the limits for the TSP.
I have thought about this a lot, and while you make a good argument, I think I’ll stick with the traditional TSP.
At 32, I don’t think a public pension or SS should be in my retirement equation.
Bob G says
Stay away from the Roth for now…. Why? Everyone is talking about lowering tax rates and “broadening” the base. Both repubs and Dems are talking about this so it’s going to happen… Keep putting into the traditional and let’s wait and see what kind of tax rates we have from tax reform… It then may be worth it since the rates are going so low…
I think it will be helpful if you clarify this sentence: “The FERS program pays 1.1% of highest average pay during any consecutive 3 years for each year of service.” FERS employees only get 1.1% of high 3 ONCE THEY ARE 62. Below age 62, FERS employees retire with only 1% of high 3.
That’s why many of us remain working until 62….
I am a fed contributing 7% to tsp and am planning on retiring at 62. I am 59 1/2 now. Can I switch my traditional to a Roth?
Harry Sit says
Pam – Yes, you can switch your future contributions to Roth TSP but you can’t convert the money you already contributed to the traditional TSP to Roth TSP.
Harry Sit says
Alison – Thank you. Corrected. There’s also a 20 years of service requirement for 1.1% of high-3 average per year of service.
Can you still keep your ROTH IRA (personal one) if you switch your TSP to ROTH TSP? Can you contribute to both ROTH IRA and ROTH TSP?
Harry Sit says
Jay – You can still contribute to Roth IRA when you switch to Roth TSP, unless your income happens to sit on the borderline where a lower income due to traditional TSP contributions would qualify you for a Roth IRA but a higher income when you contribute to Roth TSP would not.
Thanks Harry. One more question, is the interest earn in ROTH TSP is tax-free as well? I believe that’s how personal ROTH IRA is. The interest you earn/compound is NOT tax even when you take it out at retirement. Correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks again.
Harry Sit says
Yes, tax-free just like in a Roth IRA.
Ron Elmer says
My thoughts are that NOBODY should use the Roth 401k. Here’s an example of why. Let’s take an employee who contributes $15,000 per year to a Roth 401k who is also in a marginal tax bracket of 33% (state & federal). This person is paying an extra $5,000 in taxes.
What if this person instead, contributed to the Traditional 401k, then take the $5,000 saved in taxes and put it into a Roth IRA. So, for the same cost (or same take-home pay) the employee either has $15,000 in a Roth 401k or have $15,000 in a Traditional 401k AND $5,000 in a Roth IRA.
I think using a plan of Traditional 401k combined with investing the tax savings into a Roth IRA would probably be better no matter which tax bracket you are in now or in the future. Plus, you end up with some money in each type of savings account. So, you can tap which ever one makes sense in retirement in order to minimize taxes in retirement.
For example, retire at 59.5 and withdraw funds from your Traditional 401k since you won’t be drawing Social Security until perhaps 67. Once you begin drawing Social Security, then you tap your Roth IRA to keep your taxes low. It’s possible you can avoid paying ANY income taxes in retirement until you are 70.5 years old and are forced to take Required Minimum Distributions from your 401k while also drawing Social Security.
What does everyone think of this?
I thought you can only get either ROTH IRA or Traditional IRA. Also, isn’t there also a cap ($5k or $7k) for IRA contribution?
Ron, there are a lot of us in the lowest tax brackets who use the TSP. Switching to the ROTH TSP can make sense in this instance. Yes, if you are in higher tax brackets and using the regular TSP brings you down a bracket or reduces your taxable income in that higher bracket, then yes the traditional TSP is likely better.
Let’s not forget here, too, that the original post is about the TSP, which is only available to Federal employees. Rules may be different.
I know this is an old thread but not sure I follow Ron Elmer’s comment of “What if this person instead, contributed to the Traditional 401k, then take the $5,000 saved in taxes and put it into a Roth IRA. So, for the same cost (or same take-home pay) the employee either has $15,000 in a Roth 401k or have $15,000 in a Traditional 401k AND $5,000 in a Roth IRA.” If you are in the higher 33% tax bracket why would you not go ahead and max out out the traditional TSP contribution ($17,500 right now) and get even more tax savings before putting money into the Roth TSP?
Also, if you did max out a traditional TSP but are 50+ so eligible to make catch-up contributions, is there any reasoning that says it’s better put the catch-up in a Roth TSP rather than the traditional TSP? Or is the thinking still the same, it’s all about what tax bracket you assume yourself to be in upon retirement?
Trevor Fells says
The highest marginal tax rate for earners eligible to contribute to Roth IRA is 28%. Even taxpayers that are in the phase out range are still well within the 28% tax bracket.
AL Light says
Sir, I am in the military with 8 more years before retirement (20 years). I am currently contributing 20% of my base for sometime now. Just received my contribution balance today and I currently have $80,000 balance. I wanted to switch to Roth TSP but can’t get a better advice. I am currently 40 years old . Is it better for me to switch now? I deployed in 2012-2013 and just came back from deployment Dec 2014.
My opinion is that the Roth 401k is not good for anyone. By contributing to a regular 401k you pay less income tax NOW. By contributing to a Roth 401k you pay more income tax now in an effort to pay no tax in retirement. However most people are in a higher tax bracket while working than in retirement. Why pay a lot more tax NOW in order to save a little tax 20-30 years from now? It makes no sense. I wish they never invented the Roth 401k.
It’s a bit late, but please don’t listen to Ron. His math from his previous comments is wrong and misrepresents the Roth vs Traditional argument.
Switching to a Roth can be a good idea, especially for military members. A significant enough portion of your income is nontaxable (BAH, BAS, Clothing Allowance), making your tax footprint artificially smaller. Assuming that you are a single E-6 with 12 years TIS, your annual base pay would be 42780. After a standard deduction this still leaves you in the 15% marginal tax bracket. If you believe that you will exceed the 15% tax bracket in retirement (from pension, traditional withdrawals, eventually social security and capital gains on taxable investments), a Roth would be a better option. If you expect to be in the 15% marginal tax bracket in retirement, Roth and Traditional break even. These numbers favor contributing to a Roth more if you are married or itemize your deductions.
If you are an officer (or are higher than an E-6), you should throw your numbers in to determine if you should make the switch.
Joe Warner says
I think this is great analysis and correct fro those that many years to invest and are not at the maximum GS level. The reason is that those at the maximum GS level is already paying the most likely maximum marginal rate. So they would loose the growth difference of the money they would pay contributing to the roth. It would be better to contribute to the standard TSP and take the money that would have been paid in taxes if the investment had been with a Roth TSP and put that money into a standard IRA or Roth-IRA.
For the younger people at the lower GS levels who can well envision advancement. Roth makes lots of sense. You pay taxes at a lower marginal rate and safe on taxes at the higher marginal rates because of the pension. Continue this until you are nearly maxed out in GS level.
I am a CSRS and I have put the tax rates and disbursements into a spreadsheet. With my pension I am pushed up into the marginal rate of about 28% when I add in the TSP disbursement. That is even after taking into consideration that about 11% of my initial pension is non-taxable because that comes from what I contributed .
For people in FERS I don’t know what effect the Roth TSP will have on the taxes you may have to pay on your Social Security.
I didn’t see a question concerning retirees. Can federal retirees who participated in the TSP transfer their earnings to a TSP Roth? If so, how is it done?
Harry Sit says
No, it can’t be done, as of now at least.
I don’t expect it to ever be possible to perform a rollover this way, as you can’t make contributions to a workplace 401(k) after leaving the company.
So if I’ve been contributing to the traditional TSP for 10 years and I switch to the roth TSP, my roth balance would start at zero? It seems like by switching you’d be missing out on a lot of the compound interest accumulating in the traditional tsp. Is my thinking way off? Would starting from zero with the roth still be worth it?
Harry Sit says
Chris – Yes your thinking is off. The existing money in your traditional TSP continues to compound when you start at zero in your Roth TSP. Your new money will compound in the Roth TSP. Both your old money and your new money will still compound just as before, just in different places.
I don’t understand anything about what’s being discussed here except that I have traditional TSP at 10 percent and 5 percent Roth tsp.Is this a good thing?Should I just put everything in one Kind of TSP?Im from the post office and salary is low.
I’m still learning my ways coming from a another country.Ill get better
Harry Sit says
Manny – It is a good thing that you are contributing 15% total to your TSP. With little information it’s not possible to tell whether it would be better to put everything in one kind or another. Contributing is the most important part. Whether you put your contributions in traditional TSP or Roth TSP is only secondary. In general, the lower your income, the better off you are with the Roth TSP.
Now, I am totally confused. I am a FERS employee with Feds and make a High Salary, I contributed max to TSP ($18000) and Catch-up TSP-50 ($6,600) ALL in Traditional TSP.
I keep hearing on Finance Radio Station that I should totally go ROTH TSP and it is the next best thing to the Sliced Bread … so!!!
Q1: Can I still have a ROTH IRA outside the Agency to put away more money?
Q2: Should I put in some or all of the above $$$ in Roth TSP?
Q3: What are the TAX implications if I roll my current (large Balance) Traditional TSP account balance into the Roth TSP?
Q4: What is the BEST Distribution? A Combination of Traditional TSP and ROTH TSP?
Harry Sit says
A1 – Direct contribution depends on your filing status and your modified AGI. See Amount of Roth IRA Contributions That You Can Make for 2016. Backdoor takes some prep work. See Backdoor Roth: A Complete How-To.
A2 – Hard to tell without knowing how much pension you expect, when you plan to retire, how much traditional assets you already have, and which state you are in now versus you will retire in. If you don’t have any in Roth, you might as well start building some to diversify.
A3 – It’s not possible. One less thing to worry about!
A4 – Only knowable in hindsight. Likely a combo though.
Is It smart to contribute to both the tsp and Roth tsp at the same time?
Hi, I have a FERS traditional TSP and contributed the maximum every year.I also have a second job which does 403B. I am a GS 15 working in the Los Angeles area. My private job pay me more but I only contribute to the TSP. I work 7 days per weeks. Should I change to the Roth or 403B or a combo. Thanks!
I am going to turn 62 y/o in a few months and have contributed the max. to the Traditional TSP for 14 yrs. Unfortunately I will retire at age 66 with only 18 yr. of service in the federal government. My questions are:
a) Are the contributions to the Roth TSP taxed from my paycheck prior to the contribution to the TSP Roth account?
b) Does it make any difference making the switch from the TSP to the Roth TSP at this time with 4 years to go?
Harry Sit says
Larry – a) Yes. b) The total contributions one way or the other over the next four years will be less than $75,000. How much difference this $75k makes depends on how much it represents in your total savings. If it only makes up a small percentage, then it doesn’t make much difference.
While deployed in a tax-free zone, is it better to invest one’s money into the Traditional TSP or to put it into the TSP Roth Plan – or maybe both? My Traditional TSP balance is 75x higher than my Roth balance and the market is taking off after the election. What about compounding? Does it even matter which fund is better while mobilized or is it a wash? Thanks.
Harry Sit says
Roth, because the income isn’t taxable anyway.
Thanks, Harry. I appreciate it!
Great article by the way. It was very informative.
I have a question. I am a 24 year old federal employee at the VA (RN/BSN) and make 66K/yr. I currently have 10% of my salary in Traditional and 5% in Roth TSP. I plan on working for the VA for the next 15-20 years in order to get my pension. I have been at the VA for about a year.
After the 15-20 years I will be somewhere in my late 30s/early 40s and of course do not plan on retiring.
I am going back to school for my doctorate.(4 year program) My salary will increase to about (110K/year)
Do you recommend I keep my percent at 10% Traditional/ 5% Roth?
Once Im making the 110K, how should I change the percentage if any?
hello I’m 44 yrs old. I’m a GS7. I really don’t know anything about retirement but I’m learning and would love to learn more. Here’s what I have going on now( just by reading articles etc). I have 10% going into my tsp into my traditional 401k with 5% being matched. I want to get the best retirement amount back when I retire. I had everything in G fund for a few years and just switched to l2030 here recently. I feel that I’m behind badly because my retirement amount is low compared to others. My goal is to increase my tsp to 15% within the next 3 years. I would like to retire with payments minimum $3,000 monthly. I’m looking to retire in 16-18 yrs.. Should I contribute some into roth or keep everything in traditional 401k? any suggestions, hints or advice would be SOOO appreciated. Thanks in advance!!!!!
I don’t see that anyone answered you, so I’ll give it a shot. If you don’t have any Roth funds then I suggest you do start contributing some to the Roth side of the TSP. I suggest you start out at 2% of your allocation and add 2% per year to the Roth side for two more years to give you a total of 6%. Maybe you can do this to get you from 10% to 16% over the next 3 years. In that way you don’t need to change your existing 10% allocation to the traditional, just add the Roth to it slowly increasing your savings at the same time.
I don’t know if you have allowed for inflation (or taxes) in your $3000 a month number, but the raw number (after-taxes of course) requires an after-tax amoung of about $900,000, so that is the minimum size to shoot for.
Frankly, because you are going to have a sizable pension (more guaranteed income), I suggest a better plan is to decrease the bonds in your date fund a bit by going out to say a 2050 date fund rather than the 2030.
For fers employees a Roth investment is only good if you are planing on retiring after 59 1/2. Fers retirement could be as early as 56 if you have both roth and traditional tsp accounts it is withdrawn proportionally. example, if you are 50/50 roth/traditional when you retire its withdrawn 50 from tsp traditional and 50 fron the roth… you just losat all advantages of the roth. Most people will pay a higher tax rate while working then when retired. If you fall into the newly created tax bracket of 22% now thats 22% tax you pay where as if you are like me putting nothing in the roth I only pay 12% tax, yea good advise there pay higher tax now avoid lower tax later.
Harry Sit says
TSP Modernization Act of 2017 allows choosing to withdraw from Traditional or Roth TSP and no longer requires proportional withdrawals from Traditional and Roth. TSP will implement it starting later this year.
That still does not address that most postal employees are in a 22 percent tax bracket now but will be in ten percent or 12 ercent when retired
Retirement can be for a long time, easily 35+ years if you retired at 56. As pointed out nothing makes you withdraw from the Roth if you don’t want to. At the very least you can rollover the TSP to your own IRA, which is exactly what you should do otherwise you must suffer the RMD withdraw schedule for your Roth once you reach 70.5.
If you can tell me what anyone’s tax bracket will be over 35 years then of course you will know whether it makes sense to have more Roth or not, but I don’t think anyone can do that. I do believe less Roth is better than more — but zero is not usually the best option.